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Home > Programs > Gov. Project > Robb '01 > Transcripts

Fourth Panel

"The Robb Legacy - The Democratic Decade"

GC: Gordon C. Morse
TL: Tom Lehner
VC: Vince Callahan
JC: John Charles Thomes
SC: Stuart Connock
MH: Michael Hardy

JS: We are going to go ahead and get this final panel going. All right, we are about to start the fourth and final panel of the Charles S. Robb Governor's Conference. Panel four is entitled: The Robb Legacy: The Democratic Decade. Before we get started, again, I want to thank you all for coming and for being a part of this great, historic event. We are recording for history these wonderful memories and taking the opportunity to learn from the past. I am sure you have all seen our numerous staff members roaming around throughout the last few days, and I just wanted to thank all of the interns we have. The Center is very fortunate to be located at a University that has such outstanding students. And they are happy to lend their time to programs like these.

I want to point out one intern in particular who has his parents in the audience today. Graham McDonald has done a ton of work on this program and I want to thank his parents for being a part of this as well. (applause)

I am going to go ahead and start introducing the members of our panel. First of all we have Gordon C. Morse, who wrote editorials for the Virginian Pilot and the Daily Press and later served as Governor Gerald Baliles speechwriter from 1986 to 1990.

To his left, we have Mr. Tom Lehner who spent seven years as the Chief of Staff for US Senator Chuck Robb. And now serves as the Executive Vice President for Governmental Affairs for the American Financial Services Association in Washington.

To his left, we have Delegate Vince Callahan who has served in the 34th House district, which is in the county of Fairfax, in the General Assembly since 1968.

We also have Judge John Charles Thomas, who in 1983 was appointed Justice of the Supreme Court of Virginia by Governor Robb. The first African-American to be appointed to such position.

To his left, we have Stuart Connock who is the Executive Assistant to the President for State Governmental Relations at the University of Virginia. Under the Robb administration Mr. Connock was Secretary of Finance for the Commonwealth.

And finally we have our moderator, Mr. Michael Hardy who has covered politics and state government for the Richmond Times Dispatch since 1983. Prior to that, Mike worked for more than a decade at the Virginian Pilot covering courts and later, state government in Richmond.

Without further ado, we will turn it over to Mr. Hardy.

MH: Thank you very much, Joshua. And I am certainly looking forward to hearing from the panelists here. They are very distinguished and I think they fill-up to the aphorism: Save the best for last.

I don't know why you invite reporters to these gatherings because, you know, we have such limited resources. But, I do have a scoop to share with some of you. Larry Sabato, as you know who is the Director of the Center, apparently Larry has some future plans for these conferences. Once he gets rid of all the Governors, fairly minor figures in his estimation, Larry plans to have a Sabato Fest. (laughter)

This will be week long, of course. And even then we won't be able to explore all the wonderful parts of Larry's career. It will be held at the new basketball arena at UVA and it will have a sort of bread and circuses Roman atmosphere to it. Gladiator, Russell Crowe is going to try to play Larry as a young, humble professor. There is no problem with the young; it is the humble that is the challenge. The climax, if you will, of this colossal event will be when politicians of all stripes and all parties run up the stands, grab Larry and hang him, rip out his tongue, and basically nail his tongue to the Rotunda.

So, I think you should mark your calendars for about five years from now, if you are interested in it.

At any rate, my wife, Eva Tieg Hardy…someone mentioned last night that she was going to be here…she is unable to attend because she is in Connecticut today. So, this allows me to not be so restrained in her absence.

Which reminds me that Chuck Robb used to love one thing more than anything else. And that was very short memos. One-page memos. And I hope you can keep our remarks in that spirit today. I thought we would start out today with roughly five minute presentations from each of the panelists. And then we would get to the substance here, the legacy. Today, in the newspaper, we say that Roger Gregory is just on the cusp of being appointed for life to the Fourth Circuit Court of Appeals. And if anything says anything more about the Robb Legacy is it still lives today in that regard.

But, I guess first we will start with Stuart Connock. Stuart?

SC: Well, Mike some of the good things that happened with Governor Robb I will hold to a little bit later, if you don't mind. And we will think about how the Robb Administration was somewhat structured. You many recall that his cabinet was unusually educated in the fact that everybody in the cabinet had a Ph.D. except for myself. So, I was at the bottom of the totem pole, so to speak.

And I remember those days trying to build a budget having been in the job of building budgets for a few years. Prior to that with several other governors. We tried to do it with a consensus. And that didn't really work. And after about eight months of that I went over to see Dave McCloud, and I said, someone has got to take charge. And we concluded that he would think about it. And it ended up that was how the budget steering group got developed in which David and Roy Smith and others who were on that group. And that is how we built the first budget for Governor Robb.

The other thing…you mentioned the short memos…you didn't mention that the type should be large. It took me six months to learn that. Because all of my charts were just like we had only presented them to former governors. And I finally learned that I had to put them in bigger letters in order for the Governor to read them.

With those comments, I will hold the things that I think he left in Virginia that is very important. And some of those are surfacing their heads in this campaign. And I will mention them at that time.

MH: Okay. Thank you. Mr. Thomas?

JT: I had a unique perspective on Governor Robb's Administration. I had married someone who was a staff assistant in the Governor's office. I was a lawyer in private practice and then 1983 the Governor put me on the Supreme Court of Virginia. I was 32 years old. And the first African American in Virginia history on our high court. And he changed a whole lot when he did that.

It turns out that the day after he made the announcement, there was an NAACP convention in Richmond. And I went by there and the people were in tears for what he had done in making that appointment. And I believe he made it so that no Governor of Virginia can ever have a lily-white anything anymore. Now, some of my best friends are white. I ain't got nothing against white people. (laughter) But, he changed things so that if any Governor, I don't care what party he is in, better not have a row where the courts are all one color, or just men, or when any part of the government is like that. That is Chuck Robb that made that happen. And he surely has something to do with setting the atmospheric in Virginia and the stage so that a black man could be Governor of Virginia. All that happened in the 1980s.

MH: Mr. Callahan?

VC: Thank you very much. First let me say that I am the only person in this room who represents Chuck Robb. (laughter) I also want to give a little history. I see my friend Alan Diamonstein here. He is here along with Ray Garland. We were all in the Class of '68 in the General Assembly in the House of Delegates. And I will be the only survivor…Alan is not…your services will be missed. And then there was one. And that is me. And how long I will hang around, I don't know. The voters might have something to say about that.

When I was elected to the House of Delegates in 1967, taking office in '68, there were 14 Republicans there. We now have 53. The rise in the Republican Party started actually in the following election year, 1969 when Linwood Holton was elected. We elected about 24 members to the House…somewhere along those lines. It took a nose-dive because of Watergate down to 17 in the '75 elections. But, after that, we have had a steady increase and even during the Robb years, we managed to add a few members every election 'til we… for our first mark to break was a 30 member mark and that was a great milestone. Then 40 members. And then obviously, four years ago we got up through some manipulation to 50. And now it is up to 53.

People ask me how many governors I served under. And I proudly say I have never served under any governor. I have served with 9 governors. One of whom was twice…that was Mills Godwin. So, I have Godwin 1 and Godwin 2, and that with nine come up. The Chuck Robb years were sort of the middle years of my service in my tenure in the General Assembly. You might say it is the middle kingdom, as the Chinese would put it. And he…It was also my tenure as House Minority Leader at that time. We had around 33/34 members.

And I remember being called up to Governor Robb's office for a briefing on the budget. And something I had never had before by previous governors: Republican or Democrat. And I appreciated it then, and I appreciate it now. That is my first memory of Governor Robb. I had known him before as Lt. Governor and as someone who lived generally in my neighborhood. But, I just want to thank you Chuck Robb for what you did.

Now, I don't know what they call you now: Senator Robb or Governor Robb. But, the greatest accolade anybody can get is to be a Governor of the state. There is no higher honor to then be Governor of the Commonwealth of Virginia. So, to me you will always be Governor Robb. Thank You. (applause)

LS: Tom?

TL: Well, I am in the Senator Robb camp, 1993 I convinced him to take a chance on a 32 year old and hire me as his Chief of Staff and shortly after I went to visit Alan Diamonstein to pay homage. And he kept me waiting for an hour and then called me in and told me that I wasn't his first choice. (laughter)

I love Betty Diener's story about having her sails touch the water because after I had been in the job for several years, I thought the Senator and I were past these things. And I lost my temper with somebody in the office one day, and gave him a pretty hard time. And I went in to see Senator Robb that evening, and he started out by complimenting me and I wasn't sure how it finished up, but he told me he said, you have a lot of good qualities, but tact isn't always one of them. (laughter)

So, in your case Betty, he got a little more direct as time went on. But, let me just with that in mind, I have a couple of opening remarks that I have tried to temper. For those of us who worked for Senator Robb in the US Senate, of course, it has only been six months since we have left office and for us, it is not quite as easy to fully assess and place in perspective the legacy of Chuck Robb's public service.

After thirty years of being in the spotlight, we know a great deal about him but it will be sometime before we realize his full impact on us and our society. Interestingly enough, because he lasted so long on a Virginia political scene, we do know several important facts about his political career that I think need to be pointed out.

I believe he was, without a doubt, the most successful political figure in Virginia history since Harry Byrd. Robb stood for five statewide elections in four different decades. He held the top three statewide offices. And in 1988, he received more votes than any other statewide candidate in Virginia history. Over 1.4 million votes…a record that still stands today.

Finally during his political career, and not counting primaries, over 5.1 million votes had been cast in favor of Chuck Robb making him the most prolific and top vote getter in Virginia's history.

But, as you all know, Chuck Robb is not a public figure or a man who measures success by election results. He measures success in the policy arena. And here too, his record stands alone. In 1977 and in 1981, Robb was a novelty. Here was a man who was a Southern Democrat but of a different breed. He was fiscally conservative, tough on crime, dedicated to the environment and education, and in favor of expanding government to women and minorities. His election was unique and his term of Governor so successful because he was the original centrist. Today, virtually every public figure works from the center or at least claims to. And as you all know, Chuck Robb started this over 20 years ago.

He has never been ideological or confrontational. He has always been pragmatic, measured and realistic. Chuck Robb has often said that he is an American first, a Virginian second, and a Democrat third. I believe his legacy mirrors that. His legacy's biggest impact, I think, has been on American politics. When he founded the DLC and started promoting his philosophy of fiscal conservatism, nobody was talking about balancing the budget and they certainly weren't talking about paying down the national debt.

The right wanted more tax cuts. The left wanted more social spending. Robb realized there was a different way. A third way, a middle ground, which promoted fiscal stability and generated economic growth. In 1992, with the election of fellow DLC member, Bill Clinton, the American public embraced this idea nationally for the first time. And after some very tough and unpopular choices in 1993 and 1994, by 1997 the federal budget was balanced for the first time in a generation. Shortly thereafter, in 1999, Chuck Robb quietly celebrated as the Treasury announced it was making its first payment to reduce our accumulated national debt.

Robb understood twenty years ago that we as a society cannot make choices unless we have the means to do so. If we are not spending our money responsibly, we cannot provide for a sound military, we cannot invest in education, we cannot expand and improve our roads, we cannot create jobs, we cannot spread the wealth. Nobody listened to him then. Now, everyone agrees with him and they think it was their own idea.

By the year 2000, Chuck Robb ironically was no longer unique. His main goals had largely been accomplished. The nation enjoys unprecedented peace and prosperity. And the political arguments became narrowly focused about who gets what piece of what money. Ironically I think Robb's defeat for re-election in 2000 was in part because he was a victim of his own success. Suddenly there was money to spend and the question was no longer where do we go or how do we get there, but you know, what do we do with it. In Virginia and across the country, voters were given a choice between using the money for future investments or getting it back in the form of tax cuts. We all know which argument prevails in today's political environment.

For years, Chuck Robb worked in the fields tilling the soil and planting the crops. When the harvest came in, it was Chuck Robb who prepared the food, and set the table so that people like George Bush and George Allen could have something to eat. (applause)

Finally, in the end, I believe Chuck Robb's legacy is this: He showed us the way, and he brought us as a nation to a point where we could afford these choices. He taught us to govern for the future not for the present. And as he indicated in his remarks last night, where we go from here is now up to us. Thank you.

MH: Thank you Tom. VC?

VC: Good morning. You know, in looking at Robb and the many number of allusions to this last night and yesterday afternoon, the thing that strikes me is that neither his administration nor the one that I served in look back in anger. We look back with pride. There is a sense that we were building on something that preceded us. Something that was worthwhile. I mean there was obvious continuity. The picture of Carter Launch that hung in the Chief of Staff's office didn't hang there for no good reason. It was a symbol of the extension on what had preceded us.

And, that is not the case today. And the legacy, I guess if there is one, I think still hangs somewhat in the balance. It is certainly is challenged on certain levels.

I think every Governor brings his own style. His own priorities. But, there was this sort of working consensus that Governor Baliles referred to in his speech he gave here. A speech that I have some familiarity with…last week.

The speech essentially says give credit not only to Democrats but also to Republicans. Mills Godwin in both terms, and Linwood Holton is a very close friend of Governor Baliles and Governor Robb's. Men we all highly regard. John Dalton was a gentleman. He put an emphasis on administration but he was no ideologue. He was a man who also wanted to extend Virginia forward making incremental steps within the framework that is generally regarded as fiscal conservatism. I think that extended through both our administrations. Certainly Governor Robb's.

I remember very well when I was still working for the Daily Press attending the Virginia Municipal League Conference…what was that year…It must have been '82/'83 down in Williamsburg. And Governor Godwin was rather pointed in his criticism of Governor Robb for not spending enough on higher education. So, this is a reform Republican Governor reminding everyone of what our responsibilities were to continue these important investments.

Now, I think, though, as a general proposition, the two great challenges that have always faced Virginia…the first is race and the other is resources. The race…certainly made a great deal of progress and we continue to make progress. I think that is something that we have to continue to work on, obviously. There is an article in the Virginian Pilot just the other day talking about some of the differences of opinion and problems in Norfolk. So, this doesn't stop. It is something you always work on.

But, the resource thing is just as big a problem as it has ever been. I don't think any of us, ever…when leaving office and certainly not when we left office would believe that fifteen years or more ago by without any additional money going into transportation, for instance. I mean it would seem that we were doing our part but that others would do there. But, this has been fundamentally challenged. And former Senator Garland who I admire and certainly admire his writing ability he is very good at that. But, he said some things this morning that sort of capture that same challenge. To the proposition that spending in the state is not a good thing. And he touched on one subject that I didn't think I would come in here and talk about my other life…and but I will just tell you a quick story.

I write…continue to write speeches for a living and my principle benefactor has been a company up in New York called Pepsi-Co. And I have been working as their writer for more than ten years now. And I have gotten to know some rather colorful figures including one person I will just tell you this quick story, Don Kindle. Kindle was the man who formed Pepsi-Co with Herman Lay back in the mid-sixties when they sat down at their kitchen table…as the story goes…without any lawyers and put the Lay company…Frito Lay together and Pepsi-Cola.

And Kindle who turned 80 earlier this year, still has an office up there. And purchase and their Versailles-like headquarters. And they…he is very much a presence. He is a remarkable guy. He to me is the ultimate capitalist. He is the guy who went to the Soviet Union with Nixon and handed Khrushchev the Pepsi. That is how Pepsi got into the Soviet Union. He was the one that told Kissinger that his guy Allende(??) had to go. And what do you know?

So, both the good and the bad, that was Don Kindle. He is rather a remarkable guy. But, I wrote a speech for him some years ago that he really, really liked. It was basically the corporation as being essentially a liberal institution, not a conservative one. And there may be all Republicans that run these places and they are Republicans for reasons other than the institutional nature of what they do. Corporations by nature have to be able to change and change very quickly. And when it comes to spending, nobody spends more money than a large corporation. They do so…I mean, for instance back in the early '90s you talk about their commitment to productivity, when they cut 2000 jobs out of Frito Lay in the early '90s and ________ did that, never laid off anybody in the history of Frito Lay in the history of the company. None of that money went back to the shareholders. Not a cent. It went right back into the company. And they plowed that money right back into new plants, new marketing. And they spend money because they know that if they don't they don't have the chance in getting the one central thing they are always looking for and that is growth.

Growth is the mantra of Pepsi-Co. And they know they have to spend to get there. And sometimes they make colossal mistakes. Every so often, I try to work in the phrase Crystal Pepsi in some of the speeches as a joke, and they won't let me do it. But, they lost boatloads of money. But, what I am saying is that Kindle recognized in that speech the central truth that corporations…successful corporations are liberal. They spend. And that is how they grow. And I agree with the proposition that we ought to make darn sure that we get something for the money that we spend as taxpayers.

The notion that we can get there without the money is fatuous. And…

MH: VC, I like potato chips too, but can we just get back to Virginia for a second.

Talking about a legacy there are obviously many plus sides to Chuck Robb. At the time they were revolutionary, they are accepted today. Billion dollars more was spent on K-12 public education. The Chesapeake Bay Initiative, I am sure was mentioned in earlier panels. That in itself was major at the time. Very, very important was Chuck Robb not only appointing a record number of women to high cabinet posts, but also to boards and commissions…things we usually don't cover. Chuck Robb not only put African Americans/minorities in his cabinet, on the bench, on commissions, but he also made sure that state agencies had to look to a list of minority contractors when out looking for jobs. I mean, that was more than window dressing, if you will. Economic development I would think…remember the Department of Economic Development used to be known not as DED but as DUD. Chuck Robb put new life in that agency by hiring a new director, etc.

I just wonder of those accomplishments, which I think are probably among the major, how many of them endure today and how many of them are in jeopardy? Anyone like to touch that?

VC: Well, I think the…in a rhetorical sense they are all there. I mean, the Chesapeake Bay for instance. That is the thing that is so interesting a line that was used a couple of times in different things…that Virginia used to marry low taxes with low expectations. And you know, you didn't spend much, you didn't get much.

But, now we marry high expectations to low taxes. And it doesn't work. It cannot work. It is just a matter of simple physics. And a lot of those things that Robb put in place…a lot of the things that were emphasized in both administrations still…rhetorically are not challenged. We are still committed to them.

XX: The Bay, the higher education whatever. But, in terms of the bottom line, there is no backsliding on teachers' salaries in Virginia.

MH: And in terms of…let's take George Allen after K. Coles James left his administration, there was not one African American in a cabinet post. So, I am asking you, what caused that backsliding and why doesn't it endure as been built upon.

GC: Well, on the appointments, you know, I don't know if…maybe in raw numbers you can say there has been sort of backsliding, but I don't know. I don't buy into that. I think there have been fairly committed to diversity. But, on the resource issue, I think they are backsliding. There is no question about it.

MH: Judge Thomas, let me ask…Chuck Robb obviously appointed you to the Supreme Court bench, he appointed other blacks to other positions, women the same appointment. What does it mean in terms of Virginians that it's major institutions were fairly proportionately representative with the body politic?

JT: I think it means a great deal, but I think that is obvious to say that inclusion would mean a great deal to people. But, when you look at the history of Virginia, this Jamestown 1607 we are about to celebrate the…what is it…the 400th anniversary of Jamestown. When you look at 1619 was first boat of blacks in the English speaking world coming to Jamestown in Virginia and look at how our state was involved in Revolutionary America and Civil War American, Post World War II American and all of the things that we have done good, bad and indifferent. Virginia plays a pivotal role in the whole nation's psyche. So, when Virginia stands up and says that we can get this done with regard to inclusion of women and minorities, it tells the whole country that it is time to do it. So, when he made my appointment and not just mine, but when he appointed other women and minorities, it made people proud. It made people realize that the government was not going to fall if it wasn't all white guys. It made it so that the whole pool from which leaders could be drawn was larger. And it stays that way. Now, every governor since then has not done exactly what he has done. But, I think the lesson has been taught. And the lesson has been learned. And I don't think we will ever go all the way back to where we were. We will always go a little…step up, step back a little bit, but we are not going to return to the Virginia where I was born in 1950.

MH: Vince do you have some thoughts on this matter?

VC: Just a few comments on Virginia generally. Virginia has a very spotty record on a lot of things. The Constitution adopted in 1900/1901 in Virginia was probably an illegal constitution in that it was never ratified by the people. Had it been put before the people, it probably would not have been ratified. What the Constitution…that Constitutional Convention did was reduce the pool of voters by half, by the poll tax, by various other means. It was he that eliminated your people from voting…and my people too…Republicans among other people.

The 1904 Presidential Election in Virginia had exactly half the number of people who voted in the 1900 Presidential Election in Virginia. In other words, the delegates to that particular constitutional convention did their homework and they were successful. Now, it took us all the way up to the 1970s almost…to the '60s and '70s in the US Supreme Court decisions to overturn that legacy. And during the Holton Administration, he was the one who took his kid to the neighborhood school, predominantly African American, took his children there. He made front-page headlines throughout the United States.

And what Chuck Robb did was really open up the Cabinet…as you have mentioned…and that is something that we have had with us ever since. And I think that African Americans make up about 20% of the state's population. And they should be recognized for the contribution they have made to this Commonwealth for making it the great place we did. And I think Chuck Robb…his legacy…among other things, will be that he opened up the gubernatorial office to a wide range of appointments that were never seen before.

MH: Stuart, you were very brief in your opening remarks, I wonder since you worked for both Democrats and Republicans, which is no small accomplishment in Virginia, if you would briefly address how Chuck Robb's matter of budget writing and budget making was different than his predecessors and successors?

SC: You mention just a few minutes ago about teachers' salary. I think that Chuck Robb was probably the first governor to fully fund teachers' salaries at the national level. And it is in fact on the agenda again certainly in the current campaign. That did happen. And we didn't have huge growth in revenues, but we had enough to get the job done. And it stayed like that through his term. And in his last year he did something that no one had ever done, he full-funded the Standards of Quality. And they were passed in 1972. So, from an education stand point, there is no question that Chuck Robb was a leader in that field as far as from the financial standpoint. And that takes an awful lot of money to do that.

The other thing that I think stands out is the CIT and when you see that massive building up in Northern Virginia right there at Dulles, it tells you an awful lot. Because it started out with about twelve major defense contractors working with the academician in that facility. And I think _______ went through to get it started and has progressed over the years. And there is no question in my mind that that legacy stands there and will always be there.

It would be great if we still funded teachers' salaries at the national average. And you see the gap. It is there today. The Standards of Quality, of course, a little bit different today than with the SOLs than they were back in the '80s and the '70s. But, they were big moves on his part. And they stand out in my mind because I remember making a recommendation to do that one day in a cabinet meeting and a couple people looked at me as if I had lost my mind. Where are you going to get the money from? But, the revenues were growing in those days at 10 and 11 and 12%. So, they weren't growing at 5 and 6%. He had a slow first year because we…the economic activity slowed down in '81 and we made some reductions. But, after the first year, everything was fairly positive from a revenue standpoint and from the budget standpoint.

MH: You had mentioned successes. Perhaps we should mentions something about Chuck Robb's successors, namely Gerry Baliles and Doug Wilder. I am interested on you thoughts about how they built upon the Robb record in these various areas. GC?

GC: Are we going to talk about Governor Baliles or Governor Wilder?

MH: Both. They are both Democrats.

GC: It is a shame Paul is not here. Paul has a lot to say on that subject. You know, I have kind of come to teach with…Governor Wilder had a difficult situation in terms of carrying the commitment to investments in education and those sorts of things. We had a terrible recession in place. And so that…I guess the problem is that the 1990s in terms of where the legacy has gone. And it is funny because you were just mentioning the Standards of Quality. And as I recall, Stuart, it wasn't fully funded in the last year that Robb Administration but he gave a speech saying he sort of made this moral commitment that the next governor was going to have to make the last chunk of money and that sort of had the affect of framing the 1985 election.

And it wasn't the only big issue, but it certainly was important one during the '85 race. Was, who was going to fund the Standards of Quality? And there was this speech…actually the VPA convention where Baliles said that he would and he made the commitment at that point. And Wyatt sort of hedged on it. And that worked to Wyatt's disadvantage, as I recall.

What is funny is that I have picked up the Washington Post the other day and there was this article in the Virginia Section about the newly elected head of the Fairfax Chamber of Commerce, and he was talking about a commitment to the Standards of Quality. So, I thought that was very interesting. They were finally getting that language back up…because I think most people don't understand what the Standards of Quality are and wouldn't be able to distinguish them from the Standards of Learning.

But, it is very important in terms of what the state is actually doing. And so, hope springs eternal that commitment will get back on the table.

VC: A comment on the _______What the Standards of Quality are? It is in the Constitution of Virginia that the State Board of Education will adopt certain basic standards that every school district has to adhere to, which they do. In fact, every school district including the poorest in the state exceeds the Standards of Quality.

Currently there is underway a study by the joint legislative ordered review commission on the Standards of Quality, the report be issued in November, after the election. In November, and what I can probably predict is that it is going to say that our standards of quality are woefully inadequate and what is going to happen is you are going to upgrade them. And if they are adopted, this is merely a proposal now…if they are adopted it will require a huge influx of new money to do it.

Education, I think everybody agrees is the cornerstone of state government. Everything comes after that. And we are spending less than 50% of our general fund budget on education. We should be probably spending 55 or 60%. And oh, there is a lot of things that have made that happen. Medicaid…for instance since I first got elected to the House of Delegates, the term wasn't even invented. And now we are spending a billion dollars a year on it. And various other things like that. That is a federal mandate.

But, I think that every Governor has put education first beyond everything else, as they should. And we have a very good educational system in most parts of the state. But, there are parts of it that are way behind. I think our system of higher education is second to none in the entire United States.

JT: I think that the question went to what happened with Baliles and Wilder after Robb was Governor and what Chuck had done. I think, of course, Baliles came right in and continued with the same type of appointments and inclusions and so forth.

Wilder's election as governor was a stunning thing for the Capital of the old Confederacy to put a black person as the first elected Governor since Reconstruction. And I think he benefited directly from Chuck's courageous actions. Everybody looks back now and it seems like a normal thing to appoint a 32 year old to the Supreme Court of Virginia, but think what nerve it took back in the 1980s when the court had been a monolith all that time. I was told that it had a 70% approval rating among white people after I had been in service for a year. Now, that doesn't say directly that because Thomas was on the Supreme Court, Wilder can be governor. But, it surely put people in the mind set that people of color can have high positions in the government and can do a good job and can run things. And things are not going to go to hell in a hand basket. And that was Chuck's courage that did that. Not just with me but with others.

So, along comes Wilder in that world. That he helped this man…that Chuck helped create. And he benefited from it. And so, I think that Chuck had a lot to do with the Virginia that we know today. The Virginia that moved up and moved back and is doing a dance and stepping around but it is a stronger, better Virginia because of this man.

MH: Stuart, on the monetary side on the distaff side, Chuck probably did a lot of things in education…we had to cobble off every farthing that you could find. The end result of that, there was some neglect in major areas in Virginia such as mental health, transportation in some people's minds, and the prison system. How has the top money guy in the Baliles Administration sort of deal with that problem that was left by your predecessor?

SC: Looking forward, of course, the economic activity certainly in Gerry Baliles Administration was unbelievable. In fact, we had money to fund about everything that needed to be picked up. And any time you come off a lower base and go forward, you are obviously going to have some things that need to be addressed earlier. Transportation, of course, was the number one thing with Gerry Baliles. And you may recall that he set up a special session just as soon as he was elected and set up a group to study the transportation issue. And that was enacted in September, and it was a ten-year program. And it worked quite well. Fortunately enough, the Reagan years had certainly boosted the economic activity in the Commonwealth certainly with all military spending. It produced an awful lot of dollars.

Certainly when Governor Wilder came in, he was faced with a downturn in the real estate market all going to hell basically. In Northern Virginia, the banks were in trouble. He was forced to make major reductions. I think 2.3 billion dollars. And a lot of that came out of a lot of programs. And certainly a lot of it came out of higher education.

Our revenue growth had never gotten back to the strength that it used to be. And of course that could be because of a lot of factors. But, overall, I think coming from Governor Robb's Administration and dealing with the issues he had to deal with early when he was first elected, certainly set the stage for future Governors who followed him.

MH: I mention again, to begin with the news in the papers today about Roger Gregory who just happened to be a law partner of Doug Wilder for many, many years. You talk about the relation between Chuck Robb and Doug Wilder for many, many hours. I am not sure any of us have psychiatric training to go into that. But, I think there are probably some positive things that went on between the two men that perhaps Tom would like to address.

TL: Well, from my perspective, again, coming on the scene relatively late in 1993, one of the first things that I did when I first started is I went down and visited with then Governor Wilder's chief of staff, who at the time was Glenn Davidson. And the political situation was a little uncertain because Governor Wilder was at a time going to run against us in the primary the next year. Later he did and then he got out in the general, but I was having a conversation with Tim Ridley last night. And we both agreed that certainly from our perspective, at that point in Robb's career, on the political side, whenever the situation warranted it, and the static was cut through many times…and David McCloud said this earlier, you would find out that the two of them had been on the phone. They had been talking to one another. And again, politically in 1994 and again in 2000, you know, Governor Wilder was an active and enthusiastic endorser and campaigner for Senator Robb.

You know, a lot of people had this attitude that Gee, this is so surprising and shocking, but my experience with him was that when Senator Robb picked up the phone and called him or when Governor Wilder wanted to talk about something and picked up the phone and called, the two of them worked through things just fine.

VC: From a Republican's standpoint, I think the positive thing from my partisan viewpoint, we would stand on the sideline and could easily see two leading Democrats sleight each other in public.

MH: Speaking of Republicans, Vince, some might wonder where they were during the Robb Administration. In terms of loyal opposition…

VC: I think they were generally supportive of his major initiatives from my…what I can recall. Those were the days when everybody voted for the budget. Now we have a lot of defections and then…and I certainly supported his major initiatives. And I was House Minority leader at that stage, and I guess maybe the reason I was bounced off after that tenure was that I supported him too much.

MH: I guess I mentioned the whole legacy idea, obviously. And we all know it has endured generally, but I wonder what parts of Chuck Robb's legacy may be in danger. I am sorry to come back to that, but once again, I can think of some problems with the DEQ, the Department of Environmental Quality during the Allen Administration. And some others. We are lagging behind in educational funding. We are lagging also in transportation…some might say we are not doing a great job in terms of overseas marketing. But, I just wonder if you can see any parts of Chuck Robb's accomplishments that may not been followed through to this day? Or are in danger of not being built upon.

GC: I think one of the obvious ones is that his success as a party builder. I mean, you know, the funny thing about Larry's pronouncements about the ascendancy of the Republicans as he's been saying for twenty years, and it was supposed to happen a long time ago.

And in 1981, the idea that this thing would be suddenly turned around and the Democrats would sweep all three statewide options three times in a row, if you predicted that, I would have had you certified. It just didn't seem a likely thing.

But, Chuck Robb, he made the difference. The party of Henry Howell and it became the party of respectability in the business community and he bears full credit for that. And, it is…it came undone. And I think that is the thing that we look at right now with a great deal of dismay. And perhaps the blame lies with not having thought more like a party. I think that is the problem with the Democrats is that…had you been there a few hundred years, you tend to think of things just going on indefinitely. And I don't think the Democrats in the legislature ever…some of them did, but not all of them thought of themselves as a party. And they would not think in terms of…it is just like what Vince said, I didn't serve under any governor, I served with them. And the Democrats felt the same way.

I can remember writing the state of the commonwealth address and going out on the floor of the house and waiting for all of these wonderful applause out of the lines to pay off and they never did. You know, the Democrats would sit there on their hands. And you know, they were very much…you propose and we dispose…that sort of thinking. They were not going to do anything that would advance the strength of the party.

So even though Robb had this enormous success in getting statewide offices elected, meanwhile our numbers within the legislature and to some extent just the general party organization or on the state began to unravel.

MH: Let me ask you Vince why with the statewide victories by three Democratic Governors and basically the entire Administration, how come Republicans did so well in filling the seats slowly but surely until today when they control both chambers? What was it?

VC: I think it is basically because you know, as Tip O'Neil says, all politics are local. And I think this is what it comes down to. I mean I am running this year in a legislative district that is 70,000 people. There are 7 million people in this state. And you get to know your own back yard much better than you get to know the guy next to you or somebody down the road.

And I think Republicans did a much better job of overcoming the complacency of the Democrats who had had it so long and could never imagine…when I first took office 34 years ago; never in my wildest dreams did I think that I would ever be in the majority. Much less chairman of the Appropriations Committee. And that is the committee I got on after being there four years. And Roy Smith was the chairman of it then. And that was such a closed shop that member so of the General Assembly…House of Delegates who weren't member in that committee couldn't even get into the meetings. And this is what has changed over the years.

I was one of two Republicans on that committee at that time of twenty members. And I think this is one of the problems that the Republicans had after electing three successive Republican governors, they got complacent on the statewide level. We did our homework on the local level. In the statewide level, and I think everything that goes around comes around. And it is cyclical too. I would warn my fellow Republicans to watch out, there is somebody behind that tree that is going to jump on you.

GC: I give George Allen credit for one thing. I think that he appreciated even though it may have not quite formed this way in his mind, or how he approached it, but he never the less, seemed to intuitively understand that the state had changed enough, that while we all thought of ourselves as Virginia Democrats, that we are different than National Democrats. That we were part…as I say…George threw all that aside and said, a Democrat is a Democrat. And approached it on that basis. I mean he seemed to understand that he could do that and that people would buy into it. And the Democrats didn't, I guess, mount a sufficient defense against that.

MH: Well, Vince reminded me of something very important. You talking about guys jumping out from behind trees. The Virginia Press Corp. I just wonder what…any thought you might have on how the Virginia Press, the National Press covered the Robb Administration. There were some complaints in the previous panel about it. I just wondered how you thought about it. Anybody?

VC: I think the Robb Administration was unique for various reasons. Who he married, that had something to do with it. And I think that in itself ordered international headlines just as who John Warner married the second time…third or fourth/fifth whatever. There are little things like that which are not little things…they are actually big things. But, I think that certainly was something that was unique in American politics at least at that time.

MH: I guess we shouldn't forget that Chuck Robb spent more time in Washington than he did in Richmond. He spent 12 years in the United States Senate and actually 8 years…4 as Lt. Governor and 4 as Governor, so I would like to ask Tom Lehner to give us some idea what he thinks Robb's legacy will be in the United States Senate.

TL: Well, it is certainly interesting. And there are a number of things that he worked on in the Senate that were natural extensions of his gubernatorial term. A couple of important caveats…people used…people who had been involved in state government used to call me a lot and say, you know, we read about stuff that he has voted for in the paper, but we are not sure that…it is not as if these major things are being done. And I used to point out to people of course that you know being Governor and Senator are by definition two different things. I mean, Governors do things and Senators really vote for them. You are fairly limited in…especially when you are a relatively junior member in some of the things that you can do in the legislature.

But, there is no question that he worked on things. Some of them got a lot of coverage in the fiscal area. I know some things that I touched about, he was very strong on the national balanced budget amendment and the line item veto. Some of you will recall that in 1991, his own party kicked him off the budget committee for not advocating deeper spending cuts. He was on…named to the Concord Coalition every year and those kinds of things. And the military areas, he was one of the few…I think only 10 or 11 Democrats that supported the first President Bush in the Gulf War Initiative, and as a veteran, he was always using his seat on the Armed Services Committee to promote additional military funding and these types of things.

You talk about the legacy of Justice Thomas. I was talking to Ridge Schuyler our legislative director the other day and when we were in the Senate, President Clinton was in office, of course, ultimately the President makes the appointments, but it is usually from the recommendation of a Democratic Senator. And Helen Fahey was the first woman US Attorney from Virginia. Senator Robb recommended her. John Marshall became the first African American director of the US Marshal service. Joan Freedman was the first Jewish member from the Federal Bench from Virginia and of course, now Roger Gregory is now close and almost over the finish line hopefully for his seat on the 4th Circuit.

There were a number of things like that. There were some education initiatives that he worked on late in his career. And also the environment. We worked on an out of state trash bill that we didn't quite get finished, but he had a very high rating with the League of Conservation voters. And things like that which were natural extensions of stuff that he had worked on in the gubernatorial term. And when we were getting ready for the last campaign and we started pulling all this stuff together, we kind of shocked ourselves because it was…it ended up being this huge tome and then all the sudden the challenge was how do we distill all this down and sell it in a message that people understand.

MH: Well, Stuart as usual is very quiet. I wonder if he has any final remarks before we turn to the audience for some questions.

SC: I would say that you may wonder why…and Chuck Robb's term he didn't address quote what you call transportation, but when he took office, the two bodies had already had sizable study and made a recommendation to raise the gasoline taxes. So, he was outside of that operation. But, he did sign the bill.

I remember one thing distinctly in trying to get it together, we went down through the basement of the Capital and took the tunnel over to the mansion and we went to the First Lady. We ended up on the second floor with the conferees trying to work it out. And I remember she walked in and looked at us and she said, what in the world are you all doing here and how did you get here. We came through the gate in the basement. I remember that distinctly. She did feed us though after she realized we were trying to work things out. And it was an interesting session but the gasoline tax was raised and it wasn't necessarily to be addressed during that time.

MH: Thank you. Justice Thomas, any final remarks?

JT: I think Virginia is better for Chuck Robb's involvement in our government at every level and every office he held. I saw him first at law school where he was third year and I was first year…ram rod, straight, square-jawed, back erect, looking like a leader. And he went on to be that for our Commonwealth. And we love him for it.

MH: Well, Thank you. On that note, I wonder if the audience might have some questions? Laurie Naismith.

LN: I don't mean to jump in here but one thing that did come up was the whole idea of party building. And the Governor referred to that last night in his remarks. And there is a woman sitting here who arranged a very surreptitious meeting in Cuckoo, Virginia where we hoarded Tom Downing and Bill Spong and Al Diamonstein to plan where do we go. And then the commission that Senator Spong chaired about how do we build the party that Stewart Gammage so ably staffed again. Juggling this changing party was enormous. There was a very…I will never forget…now who was I sitting next to…somebody…I got a call from Dick Bagley at about 11 o'clock at night. And this was a week before we were going to have a central committee meeting. And Joe Fitzpatrick was going be replaced. George Gilliam…is George here? George was a leading candidate. And Chuck basically said stay out of this. But, anyway Dick Bagley called and said there is this mayor of Portsmouth that is a businessman. We have been talking to him. He would be a great party chairman. The next morning I get a call from Alan Diamonstein.

The next thing I know, we say to Ben, we start talking. The next thing, Bobby Watson calls, he is from Portsmouth. Eve Patigue calls she is from Portsmouth. All the sudden, there is this whoosh, who is this business man, this mortgage banker that has been heralded as a leader in regionalization, regional cooperation of this struggling inner-city that now wants to be Democratic Party Chairman. And a Democrat on top of it.

Long story short, Ben and I ran up to the John Marshall, met Bobby and Dick. Had lunch, got back on the phone. Chuck called us a couple of hours later and said I am starting to hear things what is going on? We said, you don't want to know. Thank you very much.

But, that Dick Davis got elected and Ben…Ben, Ben where are you? But, anyway and so Dick Davis…but this party building was a responsibility that Chuck took very seriously. And then Mr. Diamonstein is sitting here…another very unique thing…again I am very people oriented…that he Governor had in this pool of talent were three individuals otherwise known as a core group; Big Al, Little Al. Bill Thomas had been the youngest Democratic Party chairman in the state. And anybody who knows Bill knows that he is sharp as a tack. Anybody who knows Alan Diamonstein knows there is nobody more devoted to building the Democratic Party. As is Al Smith. They fought as Democrats. That again, that was a pervasive theme. It was again, what can we do as a party?

And when Alan who was on the Democratic National Committee at that point…he got involved and became the chairman of these other Democratic Chairs…that gave Chuck a leadership role to help build and to start this Democratic leadership council. And there were challenges. There was a struggle nationally within the party. And I remember when Alan Diamonstein who knew Ron Brown very well, as did Chuck, they both highly respected him, but his election as party chairman was opposed very uncomfortably by Alan Diamonstein because we wanted a…and Alan you can comment on this…again, a different kind of leadership nationally.

But anyway, I just want to comment. Part of the legacy and part of what you all are talking about…this whole party building and the Governors role and responsibility in my humble opinion not Gerry Baliles but succeeding the…when Paul Nolan became the executive director of the Democratic Party, he was there for one reason. He was there to get the Wilder elected governor.

Since that time, the party has been used as a launching pad for individuals career as opposed to party building, in my opinion.

MH: Any response? Vince?

VC: I, being exposed to the inner sanctum of the Democratic Party…I always thought that Alan was part of it…I have a seat incidentally now, which he never occupied because he was in the back making deals. Let me just say one final thing about Chuck Robb. Chuck, the proudest point in your life was your service in the United States Marine Corp. I can say that as a former Marine. (applause)

MH: Any more questions?

XX: I don't have a question but I do have an answer to one of the questions that you asked earlier. You asked what was the greatest threat to Senator Robb's legacy. And I was tempted to say the greatest threat has been the decline in what I think most Virginians would believe was fiscal responsibility. The fiscal responsibility that we knew under Governor Robb and the fiscal responsibility that constrained Governor Wilder and prevented him from doing some of the things that he wanted to do…that was completely abandoned it seems to me after the Wilder Administration. We have completely lost sight as pay as you go as a fundamental construct of how we run our government. And it was because I think the Virginia Republican Party sad to say is reflecting more of the national Republican Party.

The answer to your question about what is the greatest threat to his legacy, however in my mind is not fiscal responsibility, but the attribute and the quality and the promise of courage in public office. Of doing that which is courageous regardless of what the political consequences may be. Senator Robb did some incredibly courageous things when he was Governor. And he was applauded for it. But, in the United States Senate, he took some incredibly courageous votes. And rather than being applauded for that courage, those courageous acts were singled out and used to drag him down. And I think that when you drag down a political leader because he has got the courage to lead, he may be a few steps ahead of where the people are, when you drag people down because they have engaged in courageous acts, you prevent other politicians from engaging in the same kind of courageous acts. And I think it demeans us all over time. Thank you.

GC: I would like to comment on one aspect of that. There was something that Joe Gayden…no Joe Gardner said after Governor Allen had launched some speech out there about this, that and the other thing. And Senator Gartlin said, you know, he describes a Virginia with which I am not familiar. And I think, not to be sentimental or romantic, but I think of Robb's legacy as one that was committed to Virginia. And even…as that gentleman says, that took some measure of courage, so be it. I think there have been examples of that in Holton, Godwin and others. That ultimately they were committed to Virginia in the long term. That they wanted to leave the place better than they found it. And I just don't get the sense in the last two administrations that that is the case. I think that is the challenge with which we are faced right now.

TL: I want to second what Ridge just said and also JC. The Secretary brought it up earlier in earlier panel, but there were many votes during the term that I worked for him in the Senate and Ridge was the counsel and the policy director. And I was the Chief of Staff, so I tended to watch the politics a little bit more. But, there were many votes that came up that were very difficult. It might have been a tax vote or a funding bill for education or whatever, and unfortunately these days in the Senate, too many of these votes are about bad choices. You get a bill with…that promotes increased education funding and the other side will put a rider on there about lowering prison sentences. You know, just all kinds of choices that you shouldn't be forced to make.

And we would go in there…speaking about the inner sanctum…we would go in the Senator's office, it was usually late at night. He would be given the facts. He always wanted to know the facts. He never asked about the politics of the situation because he already understood them. And I would wait until the moment was right and put my two cents worth in and say, this really isn't that consequential a vote. This probably will be something that will be put in a TV commercial for or five years down the road. We don't need this headache. You know, take a pass on this one.

Senator Robb, when I would say things like that sometimes would look at me as if I hadn't learned a thing. I felt compelled to say it. And I thought that was my job to point out the pitfalls. But, you know, I learned over time that if I wanted him to do something, you know, it was almost better to go in there and recommend that he not. He does have that contrarian feel about him. But, he was very courageous about those things. Especially in the face of political consequences.

MH: Vince, do you want to defend the Republicans before you sign off?

VC: I am not going to get into a political dogfight with that last gentleman who spoke. Suffice it to say that the present Governor and the Governor who preceded him were elected by an overwhelming majorities in this Commonwealth by the good people of this Commonwealth who I think showed good sense in doing the right thing.

MH: Any further comments? On that note, I would like to thank the panelists. They were very excellent. And I we certainly appreciate your kind attention. (applause)

LS: I want to thank Mike Hardy and I do want to make one comment to him. There isn't a blade that hasn't been made that could cut my tongue out. It is the only real muscle I have in my body. I want to thank Mike. I want to thank Bob Gibson. I want to thank Jeff Shapiro. And I want to thank Margaret Edds because it is very tough to be a moderator and to make sure that everybody has his or her say and brings out the best in the panelist. And I think all four moderators did that. And I would like to ask you to give them a round of applause. (applause)

I would also like to thank all the panelists who have told some wonderful war stories and who have spoken to history as we opened up the conference yesterday by suggesting that we needed to do. And to reprise Lynda Robb's message of yesterday, I think Lynda we kicked up in the past two days a little dust. The dust of history and that dust could be gold dust. It could be made of something else. I don't know.

But, historians will sort that out. And I think it was fascinating. I hope it was as fascinating to you as it was for all of us. I want to thank my staff over here…the ones who are hear particularly Melissa Northern and Josh Scott and all the interns who did such a great job. (applause)

I want to thank all of you for coming. And most of all, I want to say to Governor and Mrs. Robb, Chuck and Lynda, I hope that we were able to fulfill our pledge to you that you would enjoy these two days. And that you would enjoy the reminiscences and certainly that you would enjoy the very good things said by the people who worked with you. I was certainly moved in listening to a number of the testimonials. And I know…I am sure that you were as well.

So, we hope you enjoyed it. We appreciate your committing two days and spending this time with us. I think it is speaking for academics at least, I think it has been very worthwhile. So, with that, I will conclude the Robb Governor's Conference. The fourth in this series. And we will be reconvening in this same place, in this same time, next summer. Put it on your calendar for the Baliles Governor's Conference. Thank you all very much for coming. (applause)

Read Charles Syndor's introduction of Robb