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Home > Programs > Gov. Project > Robb '01 > Transcripts

Third Panel

"Robb Administration in Retrospect"

BD: Betty Diener
D: Ben Dendy
JS: Jeff Schapiro
FW: Dranklin White
RG: Ray Garland
DM: Dave McCloud

Joshua Scott: My name is Joshua Scott and I am with Center for Governmental Studies. And I would like to welcome you all again to the Charles S. Robb Governor's Conference. We are beginning our second day here and are really getting down to the meat of the Robb Administration. We are following on two great panels where we heard about the pre-gubernatorial career of Governor Robb and the re-alignment of the Democratic Party. And we heard a great panel again, about the election of 1981.

Today, we have two panels for you: a panel on the Robb Administration in Retrospect, and a final panel on the post-gubernatorial career and the legacy of Governor Robb. We are also building on the success of a wonderful dinner last night. And several great addresses by Governor Baliles and Dr. Sydnor, and a wonderful keynote address by Senator Robb.

I would like to go ahead and get started with this first panel today. Most of the folks up here, I am sure you all are very familiar with. And they hardly need an introduction. But, we are going to do a very quick run through and then turn it over to our moderator. Before we do that we want to once again thank our very generous sponsors who made this conference possible: The Ridley Group, Dominion, The West Group, The State Affairs Company and The Advocacy Group, Philip Morris, The Vectre Corporation, Loren Hershey, and Hunton and Williams. And we would like to say a special thank you to the group from Fork Union Military Academy that has joined us this morning.

Okay, we are going to get started here. I will first introduce the panel. First to my left we have Mr. Franklin White. Mr. White served as Secretary for Public Safety and Transportation under Governor Robb. And has also served, among other positions, as Commissioner of the New York State Department of Transportation. And he currently lives and works in Atlanta.

To his left, we have Dr. Betty Diener. Dr. Diener has been a leader in the field of Environmental Management for decades. She served as the Secretary of Commerce and Resources in the Robb Administration. And was recently named a Fulbright scholar where she taught Environmental Management in Beijing. And we are very happy to welcome her back from China.

To her left, again, Mr. Ben Dendy. Mr. Dendy served on the senior staffs of Governors Robb and Baliles, holding a variety of positions including Secretary of the Commonwealth, Secretary to the Cabinet and Special Assistant to the Governor. Since 1989 Ben has served as the President of the Vectre Corporation in Richmond.

To his left, we have Senator Ray Garland, an eighteen year Republican veteran of the General Assembly representing the Roanoke area. Many of you will also remember him from his writing between 1985 and 1997 in the Roanoke Times and many other Virginia newspapers.

We also have Mr. Dave McCloud. He is the President and CEO of the State of Affairs Company. Prior to founding the State of Affairs Company, he served as Chief of Staff and Secretary of the Administration to Governor Charles S. Robb and Chief of Staff to Governor Gerald S. Baliles.

And then finally, we have our moderator, Mr. Jeff Shapiro who is the Chief Governmental Reporter for the Richmond Times Dispatch. He has been responsible for daily coverage features and weekend columns since 1987.

Without further ado, we are going to turn over the Robb Administration in Retrospect Panel. And Jeff, it is all yours.

JS: Thank you. Good morning. (can't hear)…now it is on. My charge as Chair and I will exercise the prerogatives of the chair broadly to keep it focused today on the government of Charles S. Robb. Increasingly we hear much about how little people are interested in the nuts and bolts of government. In my line of work, they are much more interested in the horse race: who is ahead, who is behind, who is up, and who is down. But, coming in after twelve years of Republican rule, Democrat Charles Robb had to set a tone. One in which he, if you will, was somewhat non-threatening. And I think as a result, emerged as a transitional figure.

Remember, at that time, Democrats were still viewed with considerable suspicion. This was the party that produced Henry Howell. He had been a dominant figure within the party for some time. And I think if one looks at the way Charles Robb went about governing, he worked very hard, and, I suspect, somewhat successfully to blur the distinctions between himself and the Republicans.

But one of the things that he did do at least in blurring the distinctions was also make it clear that there would be certain non-traditional approaches to government. And at least two of the panel members here are symbols of that. Dr. Betty Diener was Governor Robb's Secretary of Commerce and Natural Resources…I think that was the proper title at the time. And was…how can I put this…known for her somewhat aggressive approach to any number of issues. Most notably economic development and the State's image to the outside world. All of us, I am sure, will remember how the word, plantation magically disappeared from the Virginia Lexicon and some of the print advertising that the State had put forward.

Franklin White was the Secretary of Public Safety and responsible for the corrections department, an agency that distinguished itself by considerable turmoil during Robb years. He came to the administration from the NAACP Legal Defense Fund, as I recall…is that correct?

FW: No.

JS: Was that among…your credentials included that.

FW: …that job, but it did characterize me for the rest of my life. (laughter)

JS: You know those liberals, they all look alike. (laughter)

But, anyway, I remember vividly Governor Robb making his point that in putting together essentially a Public Safety staff, one of the things that he wanted in that Secretariat and the agencies within that Secretariat, is management that was essentially reflective of the principle constituency of those agencies: a large black population in the prison system. I seem to recall that there was a majority black parole board installed on Governor Robb's watch. And perhaps Secretary White will be able to elaborate on some of the challenges of corrections, on some of the public relations problems that were created as well.

David McCloud was the Governor's compass in the bureaucracy. He was a career public servant. He had been at the Department of Personnel in training, knew his way around the bureaucracy. Governor Robb was a relative newcomer at least to the ins and outs of the bureaucracy. David…that was David's job to kind of show him around.

But with David's installation as Chief of Staff, a kind of a new pattern was established. One of the Chiefs of Staff, if you will, is the Deputy Governor. Governor Robb signed an executive order; it was unprecedented, establishing David's powers in great detail. I seem to recall that it raised considerable eyebrows particularly among the staff of the Joint Legislative Audit and Review Commission which in a very high profile presentation suggested that there was no legal or constitutional grounds for that document. However, that set the pattern and chiefs of staff since have had pieces of paper listing their powers and their responsibilities.

David, I would hope would also speak about and perhaps with some authority, about the changing relationship of the press and politicians. Some of the personal…dare I use the word 'scandals'…that daunt Governor Robb and later, Senator Robb. David was instrumental in kind of managing these problems. And I think he could probably speak with some authority on that matter.

Ben Denby who at birth was age 42 (laughter) started out in politics stuffing envelopes or distributing gum for Bill Battle. And you were thirteen, I think, at the time…or 43. But, one of Ben's responsibilities was dealing with the legislature. And of course, what was really interesting about the election of Charles Robb is that the foundation was always in place for a Democratic comeback in 1981 in large part because there was still a very substantial Democratic majority in the legislature: luckily 2 to 1 in the House, 4 to 1 in the Senate. That was, like I said, the high water mark. And from that point on, the numbers started dropping. And of course, we know what has happened today.

But, I would hope that Ben could talk a bit about legislative relations. They were not always entirely smooth. There were some very bumpy moments. And I seem to recall the delight of one Newport News delegate and now state corporate commission member, Ted Morrison, in getting to the House floor, legislation that would ban…abolish the Governor's cabinet. That was quite a remarkable feat.

And then finally, Ray Garland, the…as a State Senator from Roanoke always represented the loyal and highly articulate opposition. And one would hope that he would kind of argue a contra some of the views that are expressed here today. And I might also add that Governor Robb has always had a reputation as a fairly decorous fellow. But in the few moments over the years when we have actually seen him cut up, and I think it is against his religion or at least he would lead us to believe it is against his religion, he does a wicked imitation of Ray Garland. (laughter)

On that note, I would ask Dr. Diener if you might be able to address this issue of the balance that Governor Robb hoped to achieve in creating a government that was at once non-threatening and non-traditional.

BD: I think the thing that most struck me was that when we were appointed, Chuck Robb never asked us what our political affiliation was. What he was looking for was professional leadership in the bureaucracy. This used to drive David McCloud to distraction because David, I think, over the years came to believe that the best cabinet members were political animals rather than professional animals.

It is really interesting to be back in this state. I have been gone for about 14 years now. I discovered that I immediately started speaking with a southern accent again. My name is spelled wrong on all of the materials, thank you.

What I was really looking forward to was to see Joe Gattins again. I mean, Jeff is just a pale imitation of Joe Gattins. Then, Jeff told me that Joe has become an environmental advocate. He is maintaining the Appalachian Trail. He has completely transformed his persona. And I just…I have to tell you I can't believe that. I used to get up at 5 o'clock in the morning every morning, to see how he had crucified me in the Richmond Times Dispatch that day.

I…listening yesterday, I just kept saying to everybody, you are such a suck-up. You are being so nice to Chuck Robb, it just makes me sick. But, the fact of the matter was, and I tell people this today, that he was literally the best administrator and best executive I have ever worked for. Because what he would establish was an overall goal which he wanted your department to be best in the country. And he wasn't going to tell you how to do that. He wasn't going to tell you who had given him a lot of money in the campaign and what they believed. He really completely delegated the programs to you with the understanding you wanted them to be the best in the country.

And as I look back on that, you know, when you think of the start up of the Chesapeake Bay Campaign…had Chuck Robb ever run for Governor, he would have been one of the strongest environmental nominees that ever occurred. He is probably horrified to hear that. But, nevertheless, he initiated…or the agencies initiated under his leadership, some extraordinarily innovative programs.

And one of my regrets in coming back to Virginia is that in many ways you just can't say those things anymore. If you say who is a leader in environmental issues…in innovative approaches to solving environmental problems, Virginia will come out 49th or 50th on the list.

This spring I was in Shanghai on Earth Day on a panel with Bill Riley who is a former Republican head of EPA. And Bill Riley started really going off about the fact that I was from Virginia and that somebody from one of the coal companies, which will go unmentioned, in Virginia had actually gotten George Bush (W) to back off the Kyoto Treaty and to adopt this very bizarre position on Global Warming. And he said, aren't you embarrassed. This is Republican saying this to me…Aren't you embarrassed to be from Virginia?

And I think this is true in a number of areas. We have had initiatives in mine safety that brought together people like Rich Trumpket and the mine owners to come up with some innovative solutions to mining safety. And in area after area, I can point up the fact that what Chuck Robb's leadership did was free up people in the bureaucracy who really in Virginia are totally committed to doing good things for the state. And it enabled them to come up with some very innovative programs and to get them accepted and implemented so that they could be proud of them when they went to national meetings. They would talk about the innovative programs that they had started in Virginia, and I suspect that is simply not true anymore.

In what I call the bean counting areas, you know, all the fiscal responsibility stuff, there were a number of accomplishments. Regulatory reform…I will never forget…we were going through all our agencies and we are trying to figure out what it was in Regulations that we could get rid of. There was a law on the books that said that every year you had to go to every county and count all the mules and asses in the county. You know, one Republican, two Republicans, three Republicans…. (laughter). So, we could go through and do that.

We were able to reduce employment…you know, very quietly, it never got headlines. But there were fewer employees in the State government when we left office than when we came in. There were many more minority leaders of state departments. Government got reorganized. If you remember back then, I have trouble remembering back then…but anyway, if you remember back then Commerce and Resources were in one Secretariat so that you were in charge of economic development, you were in charge of environmental protection, and the two tended to clash right out of the Secretary's head.

When you are talking about Uranium mining. Now, it would bring 2,000 jobs to the state and $200 million dollars. Of course, the tailings from the Uranium would remain radioactive for thousands of years…which was a slight problem. And the advocates on each side used to come in to the office and sit, and scream, and yell.

So, one day I go to the Governor and say, why is it that all the environmental agencies and all the economic development agencies are all in one Secretariat. And he said, well Betty, it is very simple. It is so that no one shoots the Governor. (laughter)

By the way, this one disclaimer I want to make before I want to go on…poor Ben is sitting here worried to death that he is to the left of Betty Diener. Ben has never been to the left of Betty Diener.

At any rate, one of the fondest memories I have is a Linda story. And Ed Willey. Linda and I share…or shared an absolute terror of flying. But, you know, every now and then you had to get in the state plane, which had propellers. I hated the thing. You get in the state plane. You fly somewhere. So one day we are flying to New York, and Ed Willey was sitting with his back to the cockpit. And Linda and I were sitting across the aisle, across from him. And Linda whips out her Bible, which she does in moments of great stress. And she starts reading aloud. Which gets me to about to weeping, you know. Anyway, Linda is reading aloud from the Bible, and Ed Willey looks at her and fixes her with that look he had, and he said, "Young lady, I am far closer to the feet of God than you are. Now put the damn Bible away." (laughter)

I think that one of the reasons that I think he is a great executive is that one time he did a performance evaluation. And for any of you who have done a performance evaluations of your employees, you know that is very difficult. Because, any negative thing you say, they just…that is all they remember and they hold a grudge forever.

Well, we had gone through the plantation flap. And one or two other flaps. And I was having my performance evaluation. He said, "Betty, you know, working with you is like working with a yacht in the America's Cup races." He says, "They are really sleek and they move really fast through the water." And I am thinking, whoo, I am sleek, I am fast. I always knew that I was fast; I had never known I was sleek.

So, he says, "But every now and then, your sails touch the water." He says, "In the future, don't let your sails touch the water." And I that was it. That was great. I thought it was just terrific.

I have often thought he was a better administrator than legislator. I will never forget when Clarence Thomas was up…was being nominated for the Supreme Court and Chuck Robb voted for him. I always figured out the reason that he did that, though. You know, Chuck can't see or couldn't see…it is cataracts or whatever…and I figured somebody told him that is was John Henry Thomas, not Clarence Thomas. (laughter) I mean, John Charles Thomas instead of Clarence Thomas. And that is why Chuck voted for him. That is my reason at least.

All in all, with the economic development that was the fasted growth in jobs and plant expansions in ten years, with the start of the Chesapeake Bay clean-up that is still going on, with the lives that were saved in mining because of there were no further explosions…all of those things came about because Chuck Robb could motivate and lead the employees of the state and the bureaucracy of the state to do things that they have never dreamed of. And for that I applaud him and say that it was probably the most exciting four years of my life and a period for which I am very grateful. Thank you. (applause)

JS: Well done. Thank you, Dr. Diener. I would encourage the other panelists to keep their remarks somewhat compressed either to get a discourse going here, I wouldn't dream of suggesting that Dr. Diener having suffered her wrath a number of times over the years. A couple points that you made that I just want to point…you talked about how the Robb Administration closed with fewer employees in state government than when it began. It was also an administration in which another pattern was set. And there was remarkable growth in the number of part time employees…the so-called P-14s. This is an issue with which…a nuts and bolts issue of government with which we are still wrestling today. Also, there was a piece or legislation enacted by the General Assembly that came back to bite the Democrats in hindquarters when George Allen was elected Governor. I hope maybe Mr. White can talk about this. It made it easier to remove high-level non-political employees from office. This seemed to be tailored with a particular prison warden in mind. Again, I would hope that Mr. White could elaborate on it.

And finally, a note of personal privilege…the former Secretary from whom we just heard, has also publicly commented on the former Governor's attributes, I seem to recall, at a Diabetes Fund dinner. She said publicly that Chuck Robb was blessed with cute buns. (laughter)

BD: Yeah, he still has them too. So what. (laughter)

JS: Secretary White.

FW: It was tough then and it still is to follow Betty as most of you might imagine. I look back to those years with much the same spirit. I didn't know Chuck Robb or Dave McCloud or anybody in Virginia when I came. I had left, not the Legal Defense Fund, but the White House after having served as Deputy Budget Director in New York for a number of years. And I guess, leaving the Carter White House is tantamount to leaving the Legal Defense Fund, some might think. But, I am struck by a number of things. And I will just tick those off very quickly for you.

I have mentioned to a number of people that I think I came down with some of the arrogance that a New Yorker probably brings south. And now I am in Atlanta, so you can imagine what I am going through.

But, I think I came, never at all expecting to find Virginia run as well as it is run. And it is not a partisan matter. I think whether it is Democrats or Republicans, Virginia has an awful lot to be proud of. And I say that again, having worked in a large city government, in the budgeting of a large state, having worked in California. I have never seen efficiency of government close to what I have seen in Virginia.

The prime reason has to do with the Cabinet form of government. And in Virginia, if I remember, the cabinet meetings that we had, if there were ten people in the room, it was probably a lot at the time. In New York, it is probably 50 people in a room. And you can imagine what flows from a Governor trying to manage by people reporting directly at the affairs of a state that big. So, my fondest recollection is really how well I thought Virginia was managed at the time. I have come to hear that in some respects it may not be quite what it was then. But, even with that, I think there is a lot to be proud of here.

The second recollection has to do with the Governor himself, a very unique individual. For all of the matters of style that people referred to yesterday…and I want to give you a couple of examples that I think buttress that conclusion about the nature of the man. When we got to Virginia, it was January of '82 and the first budget had to go in…well in months after the Governor is sworn in. And I recall at the time that the increase in the budget that the Governor submitted was probably in the nature of 12-14% increase over the prior two-year budget. I remember there was a lot of pain associated with the fact that for the public safety sector of the budget, and particular for the department of correction, the increase was double what the increase was going to be for the overall state budget. So, that caused a lot of pain and some thought about where we are going. And don't we need to figure this out.

So one of the first jobs that had to be done in the public sector area was to ask what is the growth that we foresee in the prison population. Who are the people in prison? If some are non-violent, what is the definition of a non-violent? How do we feel about those people being incarcerated at rates that even then were approaching $20,000 a year? And assuming we saw where we wanted to go, that needed to then be opened in a thoughtful way with the legislature in the hope that if not that year, in subsequent years sensible reform would come.

Well, as you might imagine, that was not the kind of direction…not the kind of direction the Democrats would love to cling to in a state like Virginia. But, my recollection of the Governor was he thought absolutely that those questions had to be asked. There was no hand wringing about whether we ought to…with the risks were…his assumption was that we would set about to do it thoughtfully, carefully, in a politically sensitive way. But, that we would do it. And I remember that.

The second kind of…as you know, in those years we had our equivalent of the submarine coming up on the ship…which is what happened in the case of the escape from Mecklenburg Prison. And that was in May of '84 and later on that year, we had a nineteen-hour take over, if you will, of Meklenburg. Mecklenburg was the most recently built maxi-max prison of the state.

I remember…and David will remember this as well…that when the prisoners had taken over temporarily in Mecklenburg, and with all the demands and the threats…and they had hostages…that all of us, of course, were thinking about Attica. Because, if you will remember, the situation in Attica was allowed to fester. And then when the troops were sent in you had what amounted to a prolonged war in Attica. So, the timing and the credibility was everything in dealing with that situation.

And I remember David McCloud was down at the prison. I was there. The Director was there, the Director of Correction, and the Governor. I don't remember where he was, but we were in touch by phone. And the bottom line was not a lot of hand wringing. Very calm, dispassionate listening to what was happening, thinking about it, and very quickly making the decision that we were going to go in…I think the words that David used at the time were "at first light." And I contrasted that with some of my other experiences and it was remarkable how well and without a lot of agony that situation was handled.

So, when I heard the story yesterday about the door half open…well, it wasn't the individual I was familiar with in any number of respects. As I…and I am going to wind up now, as I was preparing to come down…having been away for so long, I looked a little bit on the internet to see what has happened in Virginia. And to my dismay, I discovered that although the population has increased 34% since 1982, the prison population has gone up 300%.

One would have thought that kind of response would have lowered Virginia's relative position with respect to crime in Virginia. It hasn't. Virginia, in 1982 ranked about 38th among the states at rates of crime. It presently is about 36th. It slipped a little bit in spite of spending all that money. Which suggest that there is a lot more going on than how many people we have to incarcerate than simply how long you are going to lock them up. It doesn't take a whole lot of brains to figure that out.

But, again to Chuck Robb's credit, it was his willingness to think carefully about matters, to set a course, to not micromanage, to have his leaders go forward. And it was very, very rewarding service back then. I must dissent from Betty's judgment about Dave. I didn't find that. Now, of course, you had more money occasionally.

No, no. The people were probably after more money that you had, but my experience was quite the other one. I did not find that Dave nor the Governor vacillated or did a whole lot of hand wringing on the coordinations that we had to deal with. Thank you.

JS: (can't hear)…is parole abolition. The issue back then in the Robb years was using parole essentially as a fiscal tool to control the costs of the prison system. Of course, by the time that George Allen rolled around, we were doing away with that.

FW: Well, I think you over simplify. You have got to remember that Virginia then incarcerate…well, judges were not uniforming their sentencing. If you came from one part of the state, you could easily wind up with a sentence five times what another person got. A parole board could help alleviate that.

You also had a number of people who were properly classifiable as non-violent. And you might want to use that kind of discretion to make better judgments as you spend your $20,000 per year. It is not quite as simple as 'let's open the door, the budget is exhausted.' But, you have to look very carefully now at what…who is in prison, how much time is being served, and most importantly in the big picture, does it make sense. And as I say, we tried to do that back then.

JS: Well, David McCloud helped manage those crises as well as oversea the day-to-day operation of the government and in a new and newly defined role as Chief of Staff. And hopefully David will elaborate on that.

DM: Well, first of all, I don't think the role was quite as new, Jeff, as you have indicated. For a simple reason that for five Governors, over quite a period of time, Carter Lyons had served as Commissioner of Administration which had virtually the same powers that were enumerated in the Executive Order that the Governor signed with respect to me.

I think it is interesting that as part of the critical evaluation of state government, which we did and did jointly with JLARC, that the recommendation of JLARC was that we codify or make it permissible that the Chief of Staff did have, essentially, operational authority with respect to the secretaries in the agencies. And put into the law a provision that was permissible and would require the Chief of Staff, in that case to be confirmed by both houses of the legislature.

So, the Governor has a choice as how he wants to use the Chief of Staff. But, if he chooses to use a Chief of Staff in a fashion that we used the Chief of Staff, it would require confirmation of the General Assembly. So, I think that…you know, Betty has said that I worried about politics. And Betty, I don't offer this as any criticism, simply as a reflection and an observation, and that is if you heard Betty this morning, yes I worried about politics. And with someone as exuberant and sleek and as fast as Betty, one would worry a little bit about politics. (laughter) Particularly when it came to Ed Willey and Hunter Andrews and A. L Philpot. And a few people that may not have been accustomed to the sleekness and speed with which Betty operated. So, you have to keep that in mind.

There is a lot that we can cover here today. And none of us will ever see all that we would like to say about this. But, I think that yesterday there was an interesting comment made. Tim Ridley made a reference to it and then the Governor made a reference to it last night. And that is the slogan in the campaign. A future worthy of our past, being Virginia.

And I think that really became more…to me at least, I think to the Governor it became more than just a slogan. And it meant…what it meant was a commitment to racial justice…which we talked about yesterday. And at the end of the term, I think, it produced a government that looked more like Virginia than governments had ever looked in the past. I think it was symbolic…or I think the concept of 'a future worthy of our past' was reflected in the commitment to education, which was clearly represented in increases in teacher salaries, by magnet schools, by increases in improvements in higher education…although some of those were a little painful from time to time.

One thing that I think has not been highlighted enough is the commitment to the future economy of Virginia. And the fact that back in this administration, we put in much to several key legislator's horror, thirty-three million dollars to start the Center for Innovative Technology.

Now, back then, maybe some of you had heard of the Internet. But, I certainly had not. And back then the P.C. was little more than a word processor. So, I think that is another example of what we talked about in terms of a future worthy of our past.

And it also meant increased funding for transportation. In fact, Jeff, you may recall that one of the first legislative battles we were engaged in was increased funding for transportation. And that was a rough battle and it went late into the night with the Governor personally and me running up and down the halls button holing people to come up to the third floor and Alan Diamonstein saying, 'hey, you got to go talk to this one, you got to go talk to that one." And Dick Cranwell coming up and saying, 'you haven't talked to so and so.' And I remember that very vividly.

And lastly was the commitment to fiscal responsibility. And I want to tell a story. We had a lunch…and Jeff may remember this, Tyler may remember this…at the mansion for the Press Corp. And we split the Press Corp. into the print media and the electronic media. And we had everybody over for lunch. And when lunch was served, there was one dollop of chicken salad in the center of the plate. In fact, I believe, Ray McAllister of the Washington Post wrote a story about it. One dollop of chicken salad. And everybody sort of sat around and looked at each other like, what else is coming? Nothing else came.

And so, when we got to dessert, the waiters brought in a tray full of cookies that Chuck had announced has been made by Linda and they were in the shape of Virginia. And I will never forget Wayne Anderson who had probably one of the most droll senses of humor I had ever come across. And he would say things right out of the blue that would just make you fall off your chair. Wayne looked at me and looked at the cookie, he leaned over to me and said, 'Thank God, the man is not the Governor of Rhode Island.' (laughter)

But, it was an exciting time. And one in which we all learned a lot. And I think it was…we did live up to the commitment of Charles Robb's campaign slogan.

JS: …in line for the presidency of that entity. And I think that generated some controversy as well. One of the panelists in the next season…

DM: A lot of what I did, Jeff, generated controversy.

JS: You read it here first. I think David was tagged the 'big enchilada' of the Robb Administration in an editorial by G.C. Morris for the Virginia Pilot, who will be on the next panel.

David touched somewhat on legislative relations. And I would hope that Ben might be able to talk about that. Now, I say this in the highest respect, Senator Willey who could be somewhat unreconstructed in his attitude about any number of things including young people, once referred to Ben, I believe to Joe Gattins, say, "is that little boy…"

D: "Is that little boy on the third floor." But, he said he didn't say it, he just wrote it. (laughter) That is what he told me. But, anyway, I did live in his district. But, we did have a very good relationship with the Virginia General Assembly.

I know Dick Cranwell was here yesterday. And I really remember him, of course he was not in the leadership at that time, but is really a real floor leader for Governor Robb. And certainly Alan Daimonstein and Al Smith were tremendous parts of that organization.

And what we would do, the Governor had a package of bills…and I think another important thing to note, we never lost a floor vote during the entire four years. And there was an organization on the House floor after the sessions whenever we had tight bill. Dick Cranwell would take everybody up to the fourth floor of the Capital in the meeting room that is also a pressroom, and we would just divide up assignments and work the floor.

I was called the 'little boy on the third floor', and a lot of different things. But my favorite one that Dick called was his 'French friend, Count de Vote.' (laughter) And in the Senate, we had…it is different in the Senate and it has been for every Governor. It is a smaller body, you can't really work it. They don't like for you to come on the floor of the Senate. They won't let you come on the floor of the Senate like you can in the House. But, we had strong support there from Senator Andrews and Senator Dick Saslaw.

And there was a commitment to helping the Governor get his program. And I think we shared the same goals. I just wanted to touch on one area that I think has not been touched on a lot. But, in my view, Chuck Robb was Virginia's great education governor.

We forget, and I had somewhat forgotten that Chuck Robb entered office in a time of a crippling national recession. Unemployment in Virginia was almost at 8%. But, he made the decision that when the money was available; he was going to do something to improve education in Virginia. And he invested over 1 billion dollars. He took Virginia's schoolteacher salaries which were at the bottom ten and took them to the median. When he left office, the salaries of Virginia college faculty and public school teachers were the highest in the South.

And he didn't just put money into schools and education. We had electronic classrooms, magnet schools, equipment for schools was improved, computers were put in the classroom. And we talk a lot today about results, that it is not just money. And we looked at results. By the time Chuck Robb left office, Virginia students were scoring on SAT higher than the national median. Virginia students were at the top of the southeast…of the southern United States. So, it did make a real difference in the lives of those young people. And it was because the Governor entered office with a commitment to improve public education in Virginia. I don't want to take too much time.

JS: Fine, very good Ben. Senator Garland, just to…you reminded me of something Ben, one of the things that Governor Robb would do in office…he would kind of disappear. He would vanish from sight sometimes. We later learned it wasn't unusual places to which he was going. But, as Governor, one of the things he did…and I seem to recall this was reported well after the fact, that trying to gather string for one of annual messages to the legislature, at the height of the recession, he visited unemployment offices around the state. And just talking to people, getting a feel for their situation, just so he could have some first hand experience with the issues, something he could weave into the his remarks to the legislature. Senator Garland, was it all as rosy as these Robb loyalists said?

RG: Well, in this audience of accolades, my role is not so much as a devil's advocate, as an advocate for devils.

Winston Churchill…I quoted him yesterday and I apologize for quoting him again today, but I find I quote him so often; I can't get away from it. He said, "I have had on occasion to eat my own words. And on the whole, I have found it to be a wholesome diet." (laughter)

I laid down the sword of politics involuntarily and took up the pin of punditry, and of course, in that capacity, I had occasion to write often of Governor Robb. And this is what I said as he was leaving office. Let it be recorded that I like Chuck Robb and have enjoyed only the most cordial relations with him. "He has been a competent Governor with a true instinct for the political temper of the times. He has dispensed charm while doing as little as possible to disturb this ______ who make up the majority of the body polity. And let us give Robb credit for reaching out and drawing close a team of dedicated and efficient aids. Nobody can be a one-man show in modern American politics. The most brilliant aspirant will fail as he reaches for the brass ring unless he is a symbol of a smoothly functioning team of money squeezers, media wizards and hatchet men. The ability to assemble such a team and hold it together, inspire it is an intensely personal thing. Reagan has it and so does Robb. And both are men mistakenly underestimated in the past." And I concluded, as he was leaving office, "to see Governor Robb up close is to have a genuine affection for the man and to rejoice that one so modest has achieved so much in purely personal terms. But, what has Robb done really except to provide a calm, dignified presence in an easy time. And to increase slightly the slice of the pie devoted to public education. Backed by overwhelming majorities of his own parties in both Houses of legislature, he has not pursued a single significant policy objective that was difficult to attain."

Now, obviously there would be people in this room that would disagree with that. I would keep my remarks very brief by saying that when I went to the legislature, now thirty-four years ago, I too believed very much in government and the power of government. I was a Rockefeller Republican. I began as a Taft Republican but I became a Rockefeller Republican.

But, I recanted of that. And I did so because I did not see the results of the enormous stream of funds. When John Dalton left office, he submitted a budget of 12 billion dollars. That was increased modestly under Governor Robb, I think, to about 18 billion…50% in four years. Not bad.

We are now closing in on 50 billion for this bi-anium. I seem to have forgotten that the Republicans have occupied the Governor's office these last eight years, but we are still closing in on 50 billion. All right…in 20 years we have had a 25% increase in population. So, that would have taken us from 12 billion to 15 billion. And if we said we have 100% increase in prices, which we haven't…that would have taken us from 15 billion to 30 billion. Let's say that because we are rich and we have good intentions we want to increase that by another 25%. That would have taken us to maybe 40 billion. But, we are closing in on 50 billion.

And so the camerical vision of saying we can put every increasing amounts of money into government, I think we see more and more that doesn't work. We are here at a great University town. And I myself, as many of you have received great value from money expended here at graduate school, but the colleges of Virginia are operating at 130 days a year with these enormous capital facilities and expenditures. Would it be unreasonable to expect them to occupy 170 days a year? That would only be less that half the year. And to complete an undergraduate education in three years instead of four? What an enormous saving to the taxpayers! Well, we know these things are impossible. But, I think the great challenge in government that has never been met by either party at any level is to increase the productivity. I am absolutely amazed as a stockholder in major American corporations to see them cutting, cutting, cutting. But, increasing the volume of their business and increasing their profits. And that is the thing that I think we fail and probably will perpetually fail and infinitely fail to achieve in government. And I will leave it with that, Jeff.

D: Can I just make one comment? I think that certainly Governor Robb governed in a very fiscally prudent way. But with that said, I think you can see real results…I mentioned the ones from education. I mentioned another one that David touched on, the Center for Innovative Technology. And I think that really gave birth to the technology industry and business that is now so important to Virginia. The other thing on legislative relations, and I think certainly the Republican Party is seeing this now, just because you have a majority or even an overwhelming majority in the General Assembly, doesn't mean you don't have strong opposition. I don't know how we could have had a stronger or more able opponent than Senator Buzz Emmick. And he happened to be in our party. And there was a whole…at that time the Senate was split right down the middle between a group led by Senator Andrews and Senator Willey, and another group led by Senator Emmick. And there weren't but ten Republicans, so we basically had 15 to 15 to 10. So, there are different dynamics. And just because you have an overwhelming Democratic majority, doesn't mean you don't have problems. I mean on our crime package, if you look at that extensive crime package of Governor Robb and then Attorney General Baliles, three time loser, no parole, commonwealth right of appeal…10 to 15 bills like that every year. They were highly controversial and very difficult to get through the General Assembly, particularly with the number of attorneys serving in the General Assembly.

DM: Well, I would like to jump in and add one thing too. And that is something that I think was a factor in legislative relations. When Governor Robb assumed office it had been twelve years of Republican governors. And there were many individual members of both House and Senate that had never served under a Democratic governor. And it took some time to get used to the fact that the person on the third floor was in the same party.

I think that took its toll on the first year. And some of the articles that were written about legislative relations in the first year really reflected that dynamic.

BD: I have something to add on the administrative side as well. When we took office, Chuck had been Lieutenant Governor for four years and had been observing all the agency heads. And when we came into office, decisions had to be made very quickly about who would be reappointed, who would not be reappointed. For all the people who were reappointed…and it was an overwhelming majority because they were considered to be civil servants, they had been appointed by a Republican and they had served for a number of years under Republican administration. And so, as we were dealing with them on some of these controversial issues, you had to know that every word you said was being taken back, in some cases to the Republican party, and that you would be held accountable for it. In fact, the whole big, dumb plantation flap was because some Republicans were sitting in the room and when I read an ad that was going in the Washington Post which was the most liberal paper in Virginia, I said, "we could not put the word plantations in the body copy." It became the biggest flap that I have ever been associated with. And it was entirely because when you sat in a meeting with some people, they were Republican appointees.

JS: Well, given the leak problems, of course, as one of the beneficiaries I am certainly not going to complain. One of the more interesting aspects of the Robb Administration was Governor Robb's unusual relationship with then Senator Wilder. And it was in the legislative setting that I think all of us came to appreciate just how unusual and difficult that relationship can be. I seem to recall that Senator Wilder was none too pleased with Governor Robb for what he perceived as lackluster support of the King Holiday bill. And I remember Governor Robb was of the view that while this was certainly an important bill, that there was a balance that needed to be achieved. And maybe David and Ben can talk about that in the legislative setting. Responding to traditional Democratic constituencies and yet trying to assure Republican and Republican leaning voters that Democrats could be trusted with office.

D: I think…I don't remember specific discussions about the King holiday, but I think that Governor Robb made the decision that he was going to make his mark in opening up government. And it certainly, to all Virginia's people and certainly to African-Americans and women. And at that time, I guess, as I prepared for this conference and another event in Northern Virginia last February, I went back and read things. In many ways I was really surprised with how far we had come. What really today doesn't seem like a lot was highly controversial then.

And I remember…and I think Secretary White touched on it when Senator Robb appointed the parole board. And it was a majority African-American. And the articles ran across the state running Bobby Baster's picture, who was the Chairman. Every article talked about majority black parole board. And Bobby Baster was a highly qualified for that position. The picture was run that didn't look anything like him in the newspaper. I called him to make sure it just wasn't me. He is now working in Washington. And I asked him for his impressions. And he said, well, first of all every article mentioned that it never would have happened, you know, if it had been a white majority board. And maybe there certainly was some significance to that. But then there were little more subtle things. I said, what do you mean. And he said, like the picture. And I had just gotten the picture. He said that when he arrived at the parole board, the employees were shocked at what he looked like. Because he didn't look anything like the picture. So, was A. L. Philpot, his quote in the article is "I'm shocked." So, I think he made the decision that this is what I want to do. I want to work on the gubernatorial appointments, to make a mark…and Lynda always says, "Remember the women." She learned that from Abigail Adams.

But, she said…the one story that I remember and certainly no one deserves more credit than Laurie Naismith…Robb appointed them but in many cases Laurie identified them. A majority…not a majority but six of the seventeen members of the College of William and Mary board were women…were probably the most challenging one was Governor Robb appointed the first woman to the board of the Virginia Military Institute. And there is a senator that is a good friend of all of ours that pretty much had the sign off on who went on the VMI board: Senator Elmon Gray. So, Laurie called him one day. And she says, I want to tell you about this individual the Governor would very much like to appoint to the board of VMI. She went over the individual's educational credentials, military career, clearly kind of above maybe the person that had previously been attracted. And Senator Gray said, oh that would be great, do you think we could get that individual…get him to serve on the board of VMI. Laurie said, it is a she. It is Brigadier General, Elizabeth Housington. And I guess from Laurie's encouragement, Elmon acquiesced and you had…who ended up being a very able and highly respected member of that board.

I think we should give Senator Wilder and later Governor Wilder a lot of credit for the help that he gave in identifying individuals who were appointed to gubernatorial offices…to various important positions. But, although I don't know the answer to that question, my expectation is that the Governor decided that these were the sorts of actions he wanted to take in terms of changing the face of Virginia government as opposed to the holiday issue…which he did support but maybe was not actively lobbying on behalf.

DM: Well, one thing that I will say is that there has been a good bit of revisionist history throughout the relationship between Governor Robb and then Senator Doug Wilder and then later, Governor Wilder.

I remember any number of nights when we would be in the Governor's office and a knock would come on my door. And Doug would come in and go in and spend an hour or two hours with the Governor talking about appointments, talking about policy issues, talking about legislation. The access and communication was as free and open in respect to him as to any member in the General Assembly, and probably was more so in many, many cases.

JS: Secretary White, given the emphasis on corrections by the Republican regime in Richmond these days, I am just wondering…reflecting on some of the problems that you all faced during the Robb years. Do you think that this has been an adequate response by Alan Gilmore at all or is it entirely an overreaction?

FW: Well, I don't think it is unclear at all. It isn't only a Virginia problem of course, it is nationwide. People believe in getting elected first. And will often do whatever it takes to make that happen. There is an…when the Virginian Pilot did a story back in early 2000, this must have been in the heat of the election, they ran a series on corrections. And the Governor's comment last night about the conflict between policy and politics triggered this sentence in my mind. Think about this…I don't remember who wrote it, but it says even talking about the changes in corrections, "Even delegates and senators who privately oppose this change voted for it," Sabato said. "They would tell me off the record that they had no choice and they were right."

Well, we could do with a little explanation of all of that, couldn't we? As we talk about politics and policy…and most of us, I think, are experienced enough to know there will be times when that is going to be the outcome. A question that I would have is what are the other times? Are there any times when that outcome is not the right outcome? And when you talk about the billions that get spent over time on a policy that at it's core is failed, but it is very successful politically, we have to ask ourselves what is the mix between good policy and politics. And do we confront it often enough? We can have meetings like this and never discuss that subject seriously. And it doesn't have to be corrections, it can be taxes. When I hear people talk about big government…they have assumed the outcome. They have assumed the answer that being big is bad. My question is, what are you big about? What are your objectives? Maybe we like the objectives. The Europeans have asked the question a different way. Not, are you big, but what are you about? What is the feeling that you have about what government ought to be doing for its citizens? And generally they have a very different feel.

So, on any number of levels, we are not asking the right questions.

JS: Ray Garland, maybe you would like to respond to that at least as a member of the body opposite. And then, I think, we can open up the floor to questions.

RG: Well, I think one point that should be made here and that I meant to make earlier is that the one term limitation on the Virginia Governor which when I was in the legislature, I think I tried on two occasions and to amend. I think that is a great disincentive to the kind of Governor that we need. The modern governors that are making their name around the country, like Tommy Thompson who has gone on to the Bush cabinet and Governor Engler of Michigan and others…are people who have been in office at least two terms and in some cases more than that.

The modern governor is being viewed very much as a chief executive. And I think we suffer in Virginia. Obviously there is a down side to that because you could have demagogic man or woman who would occupy the office and be able to perpetuate themselves in office without being a good governor, but the conditions of the state, I think, mitigate against that. And I think allowing a second term would be a very productive step forward.

I think the only thing to be said in terms of the…if you exist in the legislature as I did for sixteen years, you almost never got anybody who came to you and said, look, cut my taxes. That just didn't happen. You have got an endless parade of people who came to you and had very plausible suggestions for how to increase government spending.

And I think Virginians are very satisfied because they are receiving a relatively good bargain for their tax dollars. State and local taxation in Virginia, expressed as a percentage of personal income, is not much above 10%. And I think most reasonable and sensible people will see that as a pretty good investment. But, if you combine Federal and State taxation in this country, you do get close to a third of the personal income in this country. And I think that is beginning to bump up against the realistic limits. Obviously in the European countries, they go higher. But, those in the highest tax brackets know and depending on where you live in this country, that you are paying close to fifty percent of your income in taxation.

And I think these are things that we do need to bear in mind. And we see it in the private sector where they are doing more with less. But, we don't particularly see it in government.

JS: I suspect a number of Democrats in this room, Senator, who would like you to perhaps share that part of the state tax burden with some of the Republicans in Richmond today.

Also you make reference to the Virginia's unique distinction as a state in which a governor cannot serve consecutive terms. Governor Robb named a commission to look into Virginia's future and was chaired by Senator Bill Spong…and members included all the living former governors. And one of the issues with which they wrestled was this ban on self-succession. And they came up with a recommendation that I think was probably uniquely Robb-ian. Instead of eliminating the prohibition on re-election, the commission recommended a single non-renewable term of six years. It hasn't really gone anywhere, obviously.

RG: The flaw in that, I think, is you get at some point the Senate up at the same time of the Governor if you have a six-year term. And I don't think the Virginia Senate will ever agree to be on the ballot at the same time as the Governor. This is a special status that they enjoy.

JS: But, I would like to open the floor to questions. If you would identify yourself, of course our first questioner needs no identification…

LN: Good morning, I am Laurie Naismith. You all are great. I want you all to talk about, please, federal/state relations. Stewart, of course, is not on the panel. But, I think too because of the legislative aspects: how you all in the cabinet worked with the congressional delegations…some of the major initiatives they did…the whole orchestration of developing that relationship and how the congressional delegation changed during the Robb years. Comment. Talk about that a little bit.

DM: Well, as you know when Governor Robb was in office, I think the only Democrat we had in the Congress at the time, I believe was Dan Daniel. And so we didn't have a large number of Democratic brethren to talk with on the other side of the Potomac. What did try to do was try to make our relationship with the Congress as professional as possible. And I have to give the lion's share of the credit to Stewart Gammage who was at the time Director to the Washington Liaison Office and Kevin Burke who was her deputy in that office. And I think that as far as trying to get testimony from secretaries about various issues, it was really Stewart who really coordinated that and saw that we were on top of what was going on, on top of what we needed to be on top of in Washington.

She also had responsibility for our work with the National Governor's Association, and the Southern Governor's Association, and the Democratic Governor's Association. So, that it was broader than just the congressional delegation. But that had some real benefits because in each of those bodies, they were always coming up with resolutions and proposals and ideas that would then have to go forward to the congress. So, she was fully involved in that entire process. So, she was very able to represent us on a day-to-day basis. And when necessary, we knew well in advance when the Governor needed to go out and talk to folks. And when Cabinet secretaries needed to go out and talk to folks. J

S: Secretary White?

FW: I think in the transportation area, despite that alignment, it worked well for Virginia. I think the Republicans who were there were careful to make sure that Virginia got it's share of all the goodies that came along at each budget. And I became Secretary of Transportation toward the end. But, my recollection of throughout the period, that the relationship in Washington and transportation issues was good.

BD: I had some experiences if you remember Ronald Reagan was President. And the Reagan Administration used to take great delight when they could come into Virginia and tell us that some of our programs and policies were problematic.

One of them was with regard to clean water. And we had to deal with that. The other was with migrant labor. A report came out that said that the migrant labor situation in Virginia was the worst in the country. And you are thinking of Florida and California and Texas. And you think Virginia is the worst? But, we were able to mitigate those circumstances.

I would just like to say something nice about John Warner and his support for the Administration and his support for Chuck Robb over the years. When we were trying to get the software productivity consortium… which would have been the first program to be located in CIT. It was a big competition. We were competing with California; we were competing with Pittsburgh and Pennsylvania. And we were competing with states that had, at the time, a higher component both in the academic areas as well as the corporate areas in this software development area.

I went to John Warner because the companies involved were the big defense contractors. It was Ford, Aerospace, United Technologies, and some of the big California companies. And I said, "John, the Governor needs your help on this…we need some phone calls made." And I sat down and he started calling the chairmen of all these companies. And he would get on the phone…and bless his heart, he would say, "This is John Warner, as you know I am the ranking member of the Senate Arms Service Committee, and I want you vote for Virginia for the Software Productivity Initiative." Then he had to explain to them what it was. It wasn't even on their radar screen.

And very shortly thereafter, the vote came down and that program came to Virginia. He never got any credit for it. And he didn't ask for any credit for it. But, it was absolutely key to the state getting the program.

Now, those in the cabinet may remember another funny time with John Warner. The cabinet would meet with the Washington delegation every couple of months. And we would present programs. And John was sitting next to Chuck Robb in a meeting. And I was presenting…I think the "We have it made in Virginia" campaign or something. And John whacks Chuck Robb on the shoulder and he says, you know, I really like Betty Diener. And Hunter Andrews who is best known for his sense of humor in many ways, said, Oh John, between Elizabeth Taylor and Betty Diener, you always like loud, fat women. (laughter) Sleek, sleek.

JS: Are their any other?

D: Can I just make one comment about that? (laughter) Not about that. But, in defense of David, you know not being the political person, I am glad he got that wrap though because I didn't want it, but the…I think it is important to note that certainly when Robb entered office, Van Daniel was the only Democrat member of the congressional delegation. But, in the eighty-two election, one year after he took office, there were a number of challengers. And Governor Robb was very involved in their campaigns. And congressman Rick Baucher, congressman Norm Sazisky and congressman Jim Olan are three Democrats that were elected. And Virginia, I think had one of the largest…but he had a long way to go, one of the largest boosts in their Democratic congressional representation of any state in the Union.

And another interesting thing about that campaign…at least I am told back then that it is very infrequent when people would admit when polled that a political leader that they would vote for someone for office because someone else is for them. Even if they might do that, they still wouldn't say it in polling information. And there was polling done in the ninth district on Rick Boucher's race. And something like 30 or 40% of the people said that they would be much more likely to vote for a candidate that Governor Robb endorsed. And the people doing the polling were very surprised by those numbers. And he played a major role, certainly in that campaign but I think also in the campaign of Norman Sisisky and probably Jim Moran.

RG: Just a quick word that sort of wraps up some of these things from yesterday that I didn't put my word in. I think that Governor Robb was a historically significant figure because he did symbolize the transition of the Virginia Democratic Party to harmony with the National Democratic Party. A lot of it was made yesterday about the demise of Mountain/Valley Republicanism and in this group there seemed to be some lamentation of that. Certainly Mountain/Valley Republicanism was a product of the '50s and '60s when progressivism was the only political agenda available to the Republican Party. A political party has got to take what is on the floor going begging.

And certainly in education, mental health, and roads and so forth, Virginia had many deficiencies in those eras. But, Governor Holton's vision of a coalition of blacks and labor and Republicans was a very unrealistic one. And only worked the one time for him. And only then as a result in the splits in the Democratic Party in 1969 primary for Governor. The Republican Party and the Democratic Parties had to evolve in the way they did. There was a historic dynamic behind that. And I don't think much should be made of it as a lamentation or a regret.

Some Republicans, we heard yesterday on the panel are a little bit offended by the rise of the religious right. I am not. The Democratic Party is a party that is not always in the majority but is a party of muscle. It has muscle. And it has it in the labor unions and these organizations like the Sierra Club and so forth. And the Republican Party being more amorphous party, the religious right is it's own muscle. Really the only muscle it has. And I just wanted to make those points by way of wrap up.

JS: Any final questions. I see Joshua Scott is eager to…

D: I don't have a question. And if my wife were here, she would say you have said enough, but this is the UVA Center for Governmental Studies. And one thing, since this is going to be a record, that I think we also ought to get on the record is Governor Robb's tremendous contributions regarding regulatory reform. The Virginia Register of Regulations was established by Governor Robb and recommended by a committee he appointed, chaired by Delegate Bill Axsel. That is…until then, there was no single source of the citizen or business or environmental group could go and know a regulation was about to happen.

He also established and that study established gubernatorial review of government regulations. And he did an extensive review of all regulations. And review of 43,000 and recommended 42% for elimination or modification. So, some of it was counting the cows…it had been fifteen years that the commissioners of revenue for many years had been required to go out and count the cows in their county, report it to the Department of Agriculture, and they checked to find out what they did with the information and they filed it. But, I mean, working in the governmental arena today, I mean, I really know how important that register of regulations is and certainly gubernatorial review. Governor Robb declined to approve 20% of the regulations recommended by agencies during the first year of the regulatory review.

JS: That wraps it up. Joshua?

Read the Panel 4 transcript